In this episode of Nuclei's podcast, we are privileged to host Mr. Grant Niven, a dynamic leader currently spearheading digital banking initiatives as the Digital Banking Officer at Banque Saudi Fransi.

Engaging in a candid conversation with Ankur Joshi, the CEO, and founder of Nuclei, Mr. Grant Niven discusses key incidents from his formative years that have shaped his personality as a leader. He also delves into his relationship with risk and shares insights into his favorite failures that ultimately resulted in a successful career in consulting and banking.

The podcast provides a compelling narrative of Mr. Niven’s career and highlights his genuine passion for innovation.

--Transcript Begins--

Ankur Joshi:

Hello, Everyone. I'm Ankur Joshi, the founder and CEO of Nuclei, a fintech company based in India. We collaborate with multiple banks across the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and South Asia, integrating our products to enhance customer experiences. In our podcast, we engage with leaders from diverse banking backgrounds, exploring their personal stories, career journeys, achievements, and leadership styles. Today, I'm pleased to welcome Grant Niven, the digital banking officer at Banque Saudi Fransi.

Grant, thank you for joining the podcast.

Grant Niven:

Hi, Ankur. A pleasure to be here.

Ankur Joshi:

Great, Grant. Let's start with your unique journey. Having worked in various geographies and sectors, which is uncommon in banking, you recently shifted to the banking side. Before we dive into that, let's rewind and explore your early years. Where did you grow up, and what were the pivotal experiences that shaped you? What values did you develop?

Grant Niven:

We're delving into the distant past. I was born in Scotland, a UK national, and a Scot at heart from a working-class background. My father, along with his brothers, and my mother with her siblings, all grew up in the north of Scotland. In my early years, my father qualified as an architect, instilling a travel bug in me. During his architectural certification and degree, he volunteered overseas in Kenya, in Mombasa, during the early '70s. This experience broadened his perspective beyond Scotland and the UK.

This exposure to different cultures influenced me when I entered the world. From a very young age, around one year old, my father's wanderlust led us to Qatar in the mid-seventies. I spent a significant part of my childhood growing up in the Middle East, exposed to diverse cultures, ethnic groups, and extensive travel. After about 8-9 years, we eventually moved back to the United Kingdom. My father established his own business, and I entered the education system.

The transition from the Middle East to a small rural school in the northeast of England was a shock. The school was predominantly made up of farmers' children, and I struggled to fit in with the rural closed mindset. This period marked my first hardships as a child, forcing me to control my energy and voice, adapt to a new environment. After being banished from the school, I was given another chance in a more internationally oriented schooling environment. There, I began to thrive, making friends from diverse backgrounds.

This journey continued as I moved back to Scotland, to study at Strathclyde University. Initially pursuing economics and business law, I found my true passion in human geography. Despite expectations of a career similar to my father's as an architect, I realized my affinity for human geography aligned with my love for travel, cultures, and understanding of human impact on the world.

Although I entertained the idea of becoming a National Geographic photographer or a travel journalist, financial constraints and lack of experience led me to explore other options. My love for technology, despite not being a coder or engineer, prompted me to respond to an advertisement in the Financial Times. Successfully securing a spot in a six-week program with Computer Associates, a US-based software company, marked my entry into the technology industry.

This intensive program, more like an elongated interview, had no job promise at the end. Taking risks, I embraced the opportunity to learn the basics of the technology industry, understanding how to dress, present, engage, and handle financials and commercials. This experience made me feel alive, realizing I found my calling in a field I was personally comfortable with.

I strongly believe in following one's heart and pursuing opportunities where one can truly enjoy and thrive. This mindset has guided me through various twists and turns in my career, both the good and the bad.

Ankur Joshi:

Alright, delving into the phase when you were around 17 or 18, you've encountered diverse cultures in the Middle East, northwest England, and Scotland. These regions present significantly distinct cultures. Confirm if I'm interpreting this correctly—having exposure to such diversity molds you into a adept problem solver, someone at ease in uncomfortable situations. It fosters an acceptance that in new scenarios, you adapt naturally. You mentioned your interest in National Geographic, highlighting your ability to pick up new skills and solve unfamiliar problems, a trait evident throughout your career spanning two decades.

Grant Niven:

Yes, both in my personal and professional life, the experiences along the journey led me to follow what I enjoy. It made me open-minded, a quality I recognized later in my professional training. In corporate environments, you undergo various personality tests, and versatility consistently stands out for me. I'm highly adaptable across different scales, adjusting to situations. I wouldn't say I'm a chameleon, as I don't mold myself into something alien, but I embrace challenges. Despite encountering failures and hitting brick walls, the key is the willingness to get back up and try again.

Ankur Joshi:

You mentioned risk-taking. What's your approach to risk? Many people tend to avoid risks for safety, but you seem comfortable with them. How did that become part of your personality?

Grant Niven:

I believe we encounter risks every day; it's about evaluating the situation. In my earlier career, I didn't conduct much research. I relied on my instincts, and a comprehensive view from different sources or thorough research often wasn't present. I'd throw myself into situations based on gut feelings.

For instance, entering a six-week program with Computer Associates, shaping my career, was a gut decision. However, as life progresses, you become more informed through trials, learning, networking, experience, and education. Continuous learning, if approached correctly, keeps you informed and influences risk-taking. Subconsciously, you gain insights into what constitutes a good or bad decision. The key is listening to your broader network, considering all experiences, taking a breath, and pausing to reflect. This, coupled with discussions, precedes diving into a situation. With advancing career responsibilities, a more measured approach is crucial, considering the significant effects on yourself, others, and organizations. The knee-jerk response based on gut feeling is now the last consideration. I often inquire, "What is the gut saying?" after thorough contemplation by the mind, especially at this point in my career.

Ankur Joshi:

Is there a favorite failure of yours that taught you valuable lessons?

Grant Niven:

A failure? For me, it often revolves around being a big people person, a constant thread in my various roles where I've led, empowered, and worked with teams to deliver products and services for organizations, including the bank.

One significant incident occurred during my time at Logica, later acquired by CGI, a Canadian outsourcer. After the acquisition, many top figures left, and I, perceived as new blood, found myself in a position where CGI saw me as an opportunity. I got interviewed and given a director position with a broad remit.

The failure lay in how I handled my team at Logica. I was tasked with applying the CGI business model template, conflicting with Logica's model. This situation forced me to make a large part of my team redundant. Despite following the corporate culture and mandate, I felt I was letting people down. I had built relationships and trust among colleagues and staff who fed into my teams.

Discussing with people one-on-one, explaining the misfit model, and not being able to help them secure roles was a significant failure. It felt like a fated complete — just finished. I thought I was following my career path and doing great things, but I realized I was letting down the people I worked with. Considering the impact on others is crucial in my growth within an organization.

I've managed this aspect more carefully in subsequent roles, focusing on communication and potential impact. Many affected individuals have since grown and had amazing opportunities. Adversity often leads to great opportunities. Throughout my career, I've observed that the toughest times typically lead to the greatest opportunities. When you push your limits and explore new frontiers, you often uncover aspects you never thought existed. This is a common occurrence in challenging career situations—the back end is often brighter. So, that's the optimistic side coming through. It's crucial for people to remember this during difficult periods.

Ankur Joshi:

Grant, thank you for sharing that. I know it's difficult, and I understand the situation, having been through it. It's courageous of you to share openly. As a leader executing such decisions, it's emotionally tough, and I can see you still carry that burden. It shapes you as a leader.

Grant Niven:

My team still gets reminded by some, "Remember that discussion we had?" But then they're reminded that without it, they wouldn't be in their current good positions.

Ankur Joshi:

Yes, it shapes you as a leader, teaching you what to do and what not to do in leading people. Thank you for sharing that.

Now, transitioning from Logica, you moved to EY. Can you tell us about that move, how it happened, and the shift from consulting to a bank?

Grant Niven:

I'll rewind a little bit because probably before I joined Logica, the happiest time, I think to this day I've ever had in my career journey, was after I left Computer Associates where I had a fairly short tenure. It was hard yards in terms of engaging with, always like a new industry, and having to learn how to deliver yourself in a professional. But I left Computer Associates after a couple of years and went into an, at the time and it no longer exists, but at the time, it was one of the rising stars of the UK technology industry, and it was a company called Morse. I was there for 10 years, which is a long chunk of time for someone young in their career. But that was an environment where we were working in the technology domain.

It was predominantly around data centers and high-end unique system storage, but my career evolved with that organization. So, and that's where one of those things that led me into the consulting side and now working for a bank where that came from, and it was if you're in a commercial role in your career and you're selling things, it doesn't matter what it is, it could be services, technology, it could be in other industries, kind of telco equipment, it could be media space, advertising, property, it doesn't matter if you sell something and that product isn't good quality, people aren't gonna buy it from you again.

And that was the big learning I had over that period is we were kind of working in reselling other organizations, great technology. But then increasingly we started as an organization when I was at Morse, what I call plumbing it all together. And we were building at the time in the kind of late nineties, going into the early 2000s’ and the dot com boom period. Y2K was there, and lots of kind of fear and doubt as to what was gonna happen, it was gonna be Armageddon, and the world would stop after the year 2000, and the clock's changed that whole period. We increasingly started deploying large teams of people, engineers predominantly, but other technologists, and project managers, to get all this technology working. And that's where I kind of moved into the world of people and services. But increasingly, you discovered that if you couldn't deliver on your promises and this is one of my personal mantras, always deliver on your promises, never over-commit to something that you genuinely can't do. And that's the path that I started going down, which only led me into more of the consulting and execution advisory space because I became very deeply ingrained in not just promoting and selling a product but making it happen and making that product a success for the organization that was working with. That 10-year period was a great learning exercise because some of the projects we did didn't deliver, which made you wake up and work out why not? And how could you fix it? And then you work with at the time, predominantly banks which has led me into the financial services space.

I worked with some of the largest banks in Europe at the time, focusing on the entire technology domain, making it work for them, and addressing challenges related to how they delivered technology to the business. So, that entire period of delivering on promises, truly understanding how things lead to successful outcomes—these, for me, are crucial elements in many people's careers. Those who fail in this regard are the ones not upholding their commitments. This desire to consistently deliver led me to venture into the consulting space. Rewinding a bit, when I left CGI, it was primarily due to relationships—an aspect that has been significant in my career. I have consistently followed and respected leaders who showed empathy, valued their guidance, and seized the opportunities they presented. One such opportunity arose when one of our managing directors from former Logica joined EY. It marked my chance to return to the Middle East region. While I still have a house in Edinburgh, transitioning from a large outsourcing company like CGI to the realm of Big Four consulting was another significant opportunity for me. It required stretching myself, learning, and a chance to relocate back to the Middle East region.

So, it was 2013. Through my work with one of my old bosses, a guy called Chris Gant, a great guy, I got the opportunity to join the EY Middle East partnership as a director. Again, it was a great chance for me to return to the Middle East region after growing up here as a younger boy. It was an opportunity to establish myself professionally. I spent 6-6.5 years working predominantly with some of the largest financial institutions. During this period, I worked in the financial services domain, collaborating with central banks and regulators. This marked the first time I transitioned from being a consultative professional to working client-side.

Within a few months of being in the region, I was asked to work with one of the largest sovereign wealth funds globally—the Saudi Arabian Investment Authority. At the time, they were undergoing a significant operational transformation. I found myself in the deep end, out of my comfort zone, tasked with meeting one of the heads of their largest real estate fund, which, I believe, is the largest real estate fund globally. They were in the process of transforming their technology and operating model, and they needed someone to oversee it. It was quite daunting for me at the time, but drawing from life experiences and adhering to basic principles, I thought, "Why not?" After a lengthy session with them, a few hours later, I received a handshake, and they wanted me to come back the next week. I ended up being there for a year and a half. So, I didn't escape. EY placed me there, thrusting me into various initiatives. This experience gave me a taste of how working in a client environment can be as enriching as working in a consulting technology services environment. It was a very interesting move.

Ankur Joshi:

That certainly is very interesting. Specifically, three months after moving into that economy. Right? So going into that, having probably spent 6-6.5 years at EY, then taking that decision to move to a bank. Why did you make that decision? What was the thought process thinking behind it? How has it been faring? What are the key challenges that you faced that put you in a spot you were not expecting to face in a bank?

Grant Niven:

Well, there are a few of them, I'll be honest. I experienced the transition from EY to a large regional bank. The shift in my career involved building relationships, which, to me, had a certain directness. It was a significant decision for me.

I progressed through my EY career and assumed a partnership role where I was responsible for a large team working across the entire Middle East region on technology and digital projects in financial services. However, I found myself on a plane every week, only briefly delving into things rather than immersing myself. Although I was accountable for diverse client jobs spanning from Egypt to the GCC and managed a varied team with numerous initiatives, it didn't ignite my passion.

To be honest, I reached a point where I wanted to embark on something new. As I contemplated my next move, I had a discussion with a former client named Mike Cunningham. We had always talked about the idea of building a digital bank and being involved in the process from the beginning. One day, while I was still at EY, I received a WhatsApp message from him saying, "Grant, do you fancy building a digital bank?" That was it.

It's interesting; we had a conversation, and that led to a few other things. What appealed to me with Banque Saudi Fransi (BSF) is its status as the oldest bank in Saudi Arabia. BSF was founded in 1977 through various mergers and acquisitions, making it the oldest publicly listed bank on the Saudi stock exchange. However, it required a significant investment to build out its overall strategy for future growth and to leverage technology and digital capabilities for delivering an exceptional customer experience.

For me, this presented another challenging opportunity – not an easy task, but a great chance to be part of something significant. What has been particularly interesting is joining an organization in the midst of defining its strategy, a process that took place in the middle of the COVID pandemic.

I left EY in February 2020, just as COVID hit the world forcefully. In March 2020, I joined the bank, embarking on a new career path during such an interesting time. We were all in quarantine, and I was stuck in Abu Dhabi, unable to fly to Riyadh. I managed to have a Mac shipped to me, which became my tool for crafting my start at BSF. I spent eight months in an apartment in Abu Dhabi, much of it in lockdown.

During this period, it was amazing what could be accomplished in the face of adversity when everyone else was in a similar situation. This organization, accustomed to in-person operations, had to quickly adapt to remote work. As someone new, my task was to build relationships, foster empathy, and gain a deep understanding of a traditional Saudi-based organization. I worked on developing a strategy to transform and position ourselves as a digital go-to bank within three years.

It was daunting to undertake such a task from an apartment with no physical contact with anyone. However, with executive support, especially from the CEO and leadership team, and assistance in virtual facilitation from a partner of another Big Four firm, we brought together teams from all business lines, control functions, and operations and technology. Over a 4-5 month period, we developed a robust strategy for the bank focusing on new ventures, transforming existing business, and prioritizing customer-centricity through digital means.

Despite the initial challenges, one of the most rewarding aspects was building great virtual relationships with people. When the borders finally opened in Saudi after being closed for a long time, we had the opportunity to meet everyone face to face, completing a successful transition.

So there was no flying in and out, and it was a happy time coming into the head office and meeting all the teams when things did kick off, and we could get through the airports. That led to a very ambitious transformation plan. We're launching digital ventures and are currently in production, offering friends and family access to our neo bank. I'll be honest; we wanted to progress much faster, but there have been challenges regarding regulatory approvals and integrating legacy technology – something one should never do when launching a neo bank. I'll emphasize this to anyone attempting it: never integrate a legacy organization into a speedboat. This is a lesson we're working to overcome.

Additionally, we've explored new business models. We are on the verge of launching the first bank to service partnerships with Fintech in Saudi Arabia. We're facilitating Fintech entry into the kingdom through our regular license and enabling many services through APIs. We aim to assist them on their journey and co-invest, receiving returns from the resulting revenue streams. This presents a great opportunity for global Fintech companies looking to enter and partner with the bank.

We've also been very busy working with all our business lines, developing new programs that will reinvent how we engage with customers through digital channels. This includes re-platforming our retail business, mobile banking, and internet banking to create a great experience for customers. We are also collaborating with all our corporate clients, providing me with exposure to different areas at a deeper level.

Returning to the point I made earlier, when working for a large organization like EY, you engage with various organizations and have exposure to many things, but you don't delve deep into one particular organization for an extended period. That's the opportunity I've had here, building amazing teams. Starting with four people in group digital, we've grown to hundreds, establishing great capability for the bank and industry-leading expertise in engineering, product development, UX/UI design, and data science.

These are the essential components of digital organizations, and we had to establish them from the beginning. Accessing talent can be a challenge, especially in areas like Saudi Arabia, but we've found ways to build and attract talent. Another immensely rewarding aspect of this role is witnessing the transformation from humble beginnings to significant scaling, allowing us to execute on our vision. As I mentioned earlier, what motivates me each morning is the ability to deliver on these commitments. There's still a long way to go, and believe me, there's a lot to do, but we're starting to see our efforts play out.

Ankur Joshi:

Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much. It's been lovely listening to your journey. It's very insightful and very exciting. I'm sure you and your team must be very excited about what you're building at BSF.

Before we close, one last question. What has been the kindest thing that anyone has ever done for you?

Grant Niven:

The kindest thing? I would have to say it's probably my wife marrying me, and in all sincerity, I think she's the one who saved me throughout a lot of the highs and lows in this life. We all need someone that we're confident we can stick with, someone who's there through the good and the bad times. I think the kindest thing she did for me was, I guess, open her heart to me in the first place. But actually, that's given me the courage to keep going. So I think that, for me, is one of the happiest things that's ever happened to me.

Ankur Joshi:

That's a beautiful answer. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Really appreciated, and best of luck with all the initiatives that you're taking up. Thank you so much.

Grant Niven:

Pleasure. Thank you so much.

--Transcript Ends--